Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Acosta, M. "Juan Diego: The Saint That Never Was. We are capable of marvelous things. One of the really strange aspects of this painting is that not only is the tilma not sized, but there is absolutely no protective coating of varnish. I examined dozens and dozens of documents in the Vatican, in Spain, in Mexico to contest the existence of Juan Diego is absurd," said Fidel Gonzales, of the Congregation for the Cause of Saints. Our Lady's image on the Tilma | Our Lady of Guadalupe I see a dozen or so speckles; if you want to make them into Aztecs, Franciscans, bananas, or Bozo the Clown, then you'll probably also be great at spotting dozens of Bigfoots hiding in any given photograph of a forest. The Virgin of Guadalupe is basically Mexico's version of the Shroud of Turin. Somebody actually tried to convince me that Christianity was false by trying to prove that Constantine didn't actually see a cross in the sky A legend is written by the majority of the people in the village who are sane. She left a Miraculous Image of her appearance on his cactus fiber cloak, or "tilma", which still exists today for all to see in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. When claims are made that stuff is supernatural and happen because of miracles then when I research it I hope to find that's really the case. Yes, the image has been touched by hundreds of people, yes the original image was "enhanced" by some additional images and paint, but the original (which is still seen and was studied by more authentic scientists) is hard to explain. The Virgin of Guadalupe stands not only as an invaluable work of ancient art (possibly the most popular piece of art ever created), but also as a reminder of how the conquest of Mexico was truly accomplished: Not only its military conquest, but one of history's greatest religious conversions as well. The Image of Guadalupe. When we see the Virgin of Guadalupe image today, most people react in one of two ways: They worship it as a miraculous apparition, or they dismiss it as someone else's religious icon. The attack came not from secular scholars, but the very clerics who for decades watched over the Guadalupe shrine, which draws millions of pilgrims each year. The black of the eyes and hair cannot be iron oxide or any pigment that turns brown with age for the paint is neither cracked nor faded with age. The Image of Guadalupe: A folkloristic and iconographic investigation. This is particularly evident in the mouth, where the coarse fiber of the fabirc is raised above the level of the rest of the weave and follows perfectly the ridge at the top of the lip. Orozco told his audience that this phenomenon is heightened by the fact that it should have been destroyed twice, once when nitric acid was accidentally spilled on a section of the cloth, and another time when a bomb exploded close to it. A physicist who has spent years researching the tilma bearing the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is affirming that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon. That's also unhealthy. The Virgin Mary bundled the flowers into Diego's cloak, woven from common cactus fiber and called a tilma. . The famous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has become a powerful cultural icon associated with motherhood, feminism, social justice, dignity and hope. In fact, the only quote from Zumrraga I found that was remotely close was: An Indian goes to Brother Toribio and all will be in praise of God. By "El Cdice 1548." As a scientist, I feel that God has hidden much in our world for us to find, examine, and understand. Fiore led a controversial reform of his order and established a monastery in which a vow of poverty was required. What makes the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe so mysterious? If they are false, how does that prove that God doesn't exist? It's easy! Then He threw in some extra bits. He went up the hill to investigate and saw before him a beautiful lady surrounded by a bright, shining aura. Here is the analysis of Dr. Philip Callahan, research biologist at the University of Florida, also a painter photographer, and scientific writer, who studied the image under infared light: All donations are tax deductible for U.S. residents. Even if the saint knew of other images, the stigmata somehow was given as the most venerated object. Corts brought reproductions of this European image of Mary with him when he went to the New World. One opinion was a fake made in Europe and brought to Mexico by Franciscans. I know that there are 2 miracles associated with the tilma itself--- a bomb went off near it and nitric acid was spilled on it, and the tilma remained intact. Skeptoid Media, 13 Apr 2010. She left a Miraculous Image of her appearance on his cactus fiber cloak, or tilma, which still exists today for all to see in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. The Amazing Truth of Our Lady of Guadalupe Nickell, Joe, and John F. Fischer. These missionaries brought with them a worldview forged in the apocalyptic and millenarian ideas that had become characteristic of Spanish Franciscanism. Diego recounted this to the Archbishop of Mexico, Juan de Zumrraga (1468-1548). . 1985. Just as Mary's apparition testified to the triumph of true religion over the bloodthirsty paganism of the Aztecs, even in this case, she overcame the forces of evil. February 11, 2005 in Debate Table, [b]Socrates[/b] had introduced me to the miracle of the Lady of Guadalupe. Arebelief in Our Lady of Guadalupe and the miraculous origin of the image necessary for salvation? If the Virgin tilma is indeed a painting, and not a miraculously produced image, then it should be a simple matter to determine that scientifically. I've never heard any atheists talk about the tilma before and I wanted to hear their opinions on it. A Culture of the ImageThe mysterious image on the Tilma is a "codex" that, through the meaning of specific cultural symbols and cues, spoke directly to the hearts of the Aztec people. Rights and reuse information. In the Nahuatl language, inninatzin means mother and ton is the name given to several mountains where earth mother goddesses were worshipped, including Tonantzin. Please contact us with any corrections or feedback. Skeptoid Podcast. [It is this incredible brightness of the colors in this protrait that impresses and astonishes nearly every visitor to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City today.] This process of using an existing belief system to graft on a new one has been called syncretism. The pink pigment appears to be inexplicable. She identified herself as the Virgin Mary, and asked him to build her a church on that spot. Also, sadly, many people want to relate Mary to that goddess, but she destroyed the native religion when she appeared to Juan Diego. She identified herself as the Virgin Mary, and asked him to build her a church on that spot. Sanchez, E. Juan Diego, una vida de santidad que marc la historia. The tilma is a symbol of indigenous rights as Our Lady of Guadalupe has dark skin and is dressed as an Aztec princess, rather than wearing Spanish clothing and having light skin, like many religious icons. Adolfo Orozco stated. When Juan Diego presented the tilma to Zumrraga, the flowers fell out and he recognized them as Castilian roses, not found in Mexico; but more significantly, the tilma had been miraculously imprinted with a colorful image of the Virgin herself. The Tilma under Infra-red Radiation. YouTube: Click Subscribe, then Click \"Notification Bell\" = \rPlease \"Like\" our videos so that Youtube shares it to others by clicking the \"Like\" thumbs-up under the video = \r 6. What Our Lady of Guadalupe Means to a Former Abortionist The artist used a very limited palette, the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras), reds (including carmine), and gold. The most notable feature of the robe is its remarkable luminosity. Saint Juan Diego's Tilma : University of Dayton, Ohio I'm pretty sure that there are good answers to these objections. Welcome to r/atheism, the web's largest atheist forum. . Through prayer,experiences in life and science (yes science) I think it's way more likely God exist then doesn't. Mr Schulenburg, who guarded the shrine for 33 years, claimed three years ago that the miracle was symbolic rather than literal. There is also obvious cracking and flaking of paint all along a vertical seam, and the infrared photos reveal in the robes fold what appear to be sketch lines, suggesting that an artist roughed out the figure before painting it. It is the actual image of Mary itself that tells us the most about its true history. The blue mantle, however, is bright enough to have been laid last week. Introduction to Oneda's German Tomato The explosion was heard a kilometer away, but absolutely nothing happened to the Image of the Virgin of Guadalupe. https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.magiscenter.com/blog/the-science-or-lack-thereof-behind-juan-diegos-tilma%3fhs_amp=true, https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/our_lady_of_guadalupe_completely_beyond_scientific_explanation_says_researcher. I think one thing to be careful about is that it's really possible to make anything sound smart and convincing. . It was the tilma which contained a code that was used to convert the nation. Two of the Franciscans submitted sworn statements in which they expressed their concern that worshipping the tilma was leading the Aztecs to return to their traditional pagan ways. . The images in the eyes are more than just "inkblots" they are actual faces and figures! About us | Our programming | Become a supporter. So unless some more of Zumrraga's writings come to light, I'm going to agree with the historians who say Zumrraga wrote nothing of these events, which casts doubt on his role in something that would have been of such great importance to him. go to one of the border cities, the velvet Elvis's will be right next to the section of Gualalupe stuff. In fact, the researcher noted, this is what happened to a painted copy of the image that was made in 1789, on a material similar to the original tilma. It's easy! Miracles such as these are not intended to be the Foundation and Proof for anyone's faith. Numerous scientists and researchers subjected . 165-166). Follow Dr Taylor Marshall on Social Media:\r\r Patreon Sponsors: https://www.patreon.com/drtaylormarshall\r Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrTaylorMarshall/\r Dr Taylor Marshall's Twitter: https://twitter.com/TaylorRMarshall\r YouTube: Click Subscribe, then Click \"Notification Bell\" = \r\rVisit the Video Podcast of Dr Taylor Marshall Playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLveEuhpzPN5sFgodLZ1J9MGYYMqzn0ES1\r\rPlease share this video on Facebook and Twitter using the share button. . Something went wrong. If God gave it then its helpful :) for example if we do only what is necessary we would have Communion once a year and no devotions. There are people who beg God for an impossible cure, get it, and then attribute it to luck, or science or skill and do not believe. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002). They reported a whole group of figures, including both Aztecs and Franciscans. Historian Delno West has called Fiore the most important apocalyptic writer and exegete of prophecy in the Middle Ages (West 1989:294). That sounds great because he mentions an Indian talking to a Catholic figure, but there's no mention of this Indian's name, no mention in the Juan Diego stories of a Brother Toribio (that I could find), and no elements of the Juan Diego story included in this single-sentence snippet. La Virgen of Guadalupe: Tilma Image, Marcos Cipac de Aquino, 16th century Oil and Tempera on Cloth, Basilica de Guadalupe, Mexico D. F. In 1648, The creole priest father Miguel Sanchez hoped to popularize the shrine at Tepeyak by writing a book titled "The image of the Virgin Mary." It was in this book that the modern myth of "la Virgen . [quote name='jasJis' date='Feb 12 2005, 10:14 AM'] If they do nothing for you, how can they serve to disprove the existence of God? The legend obviously contains a number of motifs from the Old and New Testament as well as statements of specific Catholic dogma. So Ishared it on my page. A new basilica was consecrated in 1976. and MORE! Marcos followed more than a century of European tradition. [/quote] Powered by Invision Community, Miraculous Image of Guadalupe (Skeptic Article). I saw a post on Facebook about this miracle taking place. [/i] Although it was winter and no flowers should have been in bloom, Juan Diego found an abundance of flowers of a type he'd never seen before. Take online theology courses with Dr Marshall: https://newsaintthomas.com\r 4. Callahan found, for example, that most of the entire painting seemed to have been done with a single brush stroke. I do like hearing both sides of the story. Please click \"Subscribe\" button to receive future interviews and conversations.\r\r------------------------------------------------------------\r PLEASE HELP OUR CHANNEL GROW \r\r 1. Various news reports in the past have suggested that the tilma (mantle, cloak) of St. Juan Diego depicting Our Lady of Guadalupe is phony. Thus the Catholic tradition was grafted onto the Indian one, a process folklorists call syncretism. Here is just a sampling of the 18 Amazing Things about Our Lady of Guadalupe: There are people reflected in her eyes; She survived a bomb untouched; There is a perfect celestial map hidden on her robe; She can change her ethnicity . Content copyright CSI or the respective copyright holders. He warned that there was insufficient evidence that the vision of a dark Madonna - adopted as Mexico's patron saint - appeared on Diego's cloak in Mexico City in 1531. Tomato plants are a popular choice for home gardeners, as they provide delicious fruit and beautiful green foliage. Maybe that's wrong or a sin? Mexicans with Aztec heritage should take pride in the fact that their original culture, specifically the goddess Tonantzin, was a key ingredient in the spread of modern Catholicism. Diego's dark skin and humble origins coupled with the Virgin's image on his cloak was a gift for missionaries. Kuhn said that "colouring was not from a mineral, vegetable, or animal source".Sites also noted of a 1979 NASA analysis by an unknown person who could not explain it and was said to have had his life changed by this image.